Conversation with A.M. Lavrov and A.M. Dzhuga (August 1950)

Source: Tom 18

Lavrov. The main task of the American-British intelligence network is, after transforming the strictly class-based communist parties of workers and working peasants into so-called parties of the whole people, to achieve -- under the false banner of the struggle for human rights -- the replacement in the socialist countries of the state of the dictatorship of the proletariat with a so-called state of the whole people. This would paralyze the activities of our punitive organs and create a wide field of operations for anti-Soviet elements of every stripe and hue in their struggle to restore capitalist order. In their counter-revolutionary activities, the American-British agents who have secretly infiltrated the socialist countries are to rely, according to this plan, on the children of parents who formerly belonged to the exploiting classes and whose property was confiscated in the course of the socialist revolution, as well as on the children of parents who were repressed during the years of Soviet power, as well as on various bourgeois-nationalist elements and outright criminals dreaming, in the event of a weakening of the state of the dictatorship of the proletariat, of a "sweet" life at the expense of robbing the Soviet people.

A program of sabotage in the economic sphere of the socialist countries has been devised, intended to discredit the socialist mode of production. To this end, the American-British agents in the socialist countries, and above all in the Soviet Union, have been given the task of undermining centralized planning in every way under the guise of contrived economic reforms; scattering capital investments across a multitude of unfinished construction projects; under the guise of "innovative" proposals to replace metal parts in machines and machine tools with plastic parts, undermining metallurgy -- the foundation of heavy industry and the foundation of the country's defense capability. To wreck Soviet socialist agriculture, they are to pursue the liquidation of the machine-tractor stations, which would immediately bring the collective farms to the brink of bankruptcy. The American and British ruling circles place great hopes in their subversive activities against the USSR and the countries of the socialist community on the work of provocative radio stations: "Voice of America," "BBC," "Deutsche Welle," "Radio Free Europe," and other similar broadcasts. The American-British agents in the socialist countries have been tasked with securing an end to the jamming of these radio stations' broadcasts, as well as seizing control of the mass media and editorial offices of literary journals, and recruiting film directors and playwrights in the socialist countries for anti-Soviet activity. This plan will begin to be actively implemented only after you, Comrade Stalin, have stepped away from affairs and after the representatives of the great generation of communists who defeated all enemies have passed away through the natural course of life. In the matter of splitting the world communist movement and undermining communist parties from within, American and British intelligence are placing their hopes on renegades of the type of Josip Broz Tito, Togliatti, and their like.

Dzhuga (Lieutenant General, Lavrov's deputy). Tito is no renegade whatsoever -- he was never a communist. He is an ordinary agent of British intelligence, planted long ago in the communist movement for deep-cover, long-term infiltration. And by nationality he is not even a Serb. It is no coincidence that throughout the war he was so close to the chief resident of British intelligence in the Balkans, Churchill's son Randolph Churchill, with whom he even shared a tent.

Stalin. Do you have a concrete proposal for how to neutralize Tito's activities?

Dzhuga. I do not understand why we have been standing on ceremony for so long with this scoundrel Tito, this "communist." His fingers are covered with precious diamond rings, and he changes his clothes dozens of times a day into the most expensive suits. Tito has taken up residence on a small island in the Mediterranean -- Brioni. There, with the money of the impoverished Yugoslav people, he has built a magnificent palace. One bomber without markings from Albanian territory -- and there is neither the palace nor the American-British agent Tito. Where there's a man, there's a problem; no man, no problem.

Stalin. Remember once and for all: we are not adventurists. Your proposal reeks of Socialist-Revolutionary tactics from a mile away. If there is no Tito, someone else will take his place. Individual terror is not the answer.

So then, the Americans and British have declared a large-scale secret war against us... Although, truth be told, from the moment of the victory of the October Revolution, they never really ceased it. Except that, frightened by Hitler, they dampened its flames somewhat during the Second World War. Well then, if the Americans and British want a secret war, they shall have it. Do you have concrete proposals for how we can best disrupt their plans?

Dzhuga. I have two proposals. First: to fundamentally improve the work of the Ministry of State Security of the USSR. Abakumov is clearly not coping with the duties of minister. In his pursuit of "high-profile" cases, he has evidently already allowed foreign agents to penetrate a number of important party and state posts. The leadership of this ministry must be seriously strengthened. I also have grave doubts about your colleagues in the Politburo, such as Beria, Malenkov, Mikoyan, and Khrushchev.

Stalin. If one listens to you, the entire Politburo consists of degenerates and traitors.

Dzhuga. Of potential traitors, Comrade Stalin.

Stalin. What specifically do you propose?

Dzhuga. To convene a party congress, which has not been held for so many years, and to renew the Politburo. The time has come to officially promote to the leadership of the party and the country those people who, under your wise leadership, created and defended from the attacks of all enemies the greatest state in history. Without that, as soon as you step away from affairs, we shall all perish if these puppets of yours come into actual leadership.

Stalin. And the old members of the Politburo, who did so much during the Great Patriotic War for the victory -- you propose, as I take it, to liquidate them as potential traitors to socialism?

Dzhuga. Why liquidate them, Comrade Stalin? Let them go into well-deserved retirement, on a good pension -- how much does an old man need? In any case, they are no longer capable of anything serious and will only ruin the state.

Stalin. (To Lavrov.) Are you of the same opinion?

Lavrov. It is the only correct decision, Comrade Stalin.

Stalin. Very well. We shall think about it. What else do you propose?

Dzhuga. I propose that we seriously engage in Marxist-Leninist training for our Chekists. I looked into how the seminar sessions in the party education network at the MGB are conducted. The party committee secretary Rogov, whose only skill is to constantly repeat that Comrade Abakumov is "today's Dzerzhinsky," has completely botched this most important matter. The majority of seminars in the party education network at the MGB are conducted in a formalistic manner; Chekist cadres do not actually engage creatively in the study of Marxist-Leninist theory, which is why in their ranks, especially in the investigative section for particularly important cases and in the Main Directorate of Government Security of the MGB, lack of ideological commitment is rampant. The cadres of seminar leaders are often simply semi-literate.

Here is how, for example, our esteemed Nikolai Sidorovich Vlasik, who has an education of four grades of parish school, conducted one of these seminars.

One of the seminar participants asked him: "Comrade General, what is a colossus on feet of clay, which Comrade Stalin spoke about in one of his speeches?" Vlasik, seasoning his answer -- as was his custom -- with choice profanity, blurted out: "You fool, you don't know what a colossus on feet of clay is? You take a wheat stalk [kolos], stick it in clay, and there you have a colossus [koloss] on feet of clay."

Another seminar participant, a security officer who was studying by correspondence at the History Faculty of Moscow University -- a fact extremely rare among MGB staff -- asked Vlasik for permission to supplement his answer. Vlasik graciously allowed it. "By the words 'colossus on feet of clay,'" said the officer, "Comrade Stalin meant the ancient empires of Alexander the Great and the Persian king Cyrus, in which the numerous conquered countries included within them had no economic commonality, and therefore these empires were giants (colossuses) on extremely fragile feet of clay, and disintegrated immediately into separate states after the deaths of Alexander and Cyrus." Vlasik recovered -- grunting with satisfaction, he summed up for the officer who had asked the question: "There, you fool, do you understand now? I just explained it to you figuratively."

Stalin. How do you know how seminars are conducted in the Security Directorate? I did ask you not to involve yourself with that directorate.

Dzhuga. I did not involve myself. But you cannot hide an awl in a sack. The entire ministry's staff laughs at such seminars.

Since the Americans and British have declared a secret war against us, we should think about creating a special organ that would allow us to swiftly and reliably put a stop to their subversive machinations in our country by physically eliminating their agents, as is done in any war. What difference does it make what clothes an enemy soldier wears? And a foreign agent is precisely such a soldier, whether he is in military uniform or a civilian jacket. What matters is that he is a soldier waging war against our country. The threat to our country from British and American intelligence must not be underestimated, although I, based on my own experience, do not share Churchill's assertion that British intelligence is the best in the world. The majority of British professional intelligence officers are cowards. When a real threat to their lives arises, they readily agree to recruitment and betray the government of Great Britain. At the same time, the long experience and cunning of British intelligence compel us to treat its machinations with the utmost seriousness. The merciless physical destruction of American and British agents is today the most important task of our counterintelligence work.

American and British agents in our country operating under illegal cover who come to the attention of Soviet counterintelligence, especially those who are foreign citizens, must be physically eliminated -- preferably in secret -- or turned and sent back to England and the USA with the aim of working for us. If this is not done, great troubles await the Soviet people in the future.

Since your personal counterintelligence, Comrade Stalin, does not itself engage in arrests or the physical elimination of foreign agents and performs a purely informational function, the time has come to create a special organ under the Minister of the MGB that would, on the basis of information obtained by myself and General Lavrov, undertake the physical liquidation of foreign agents in our country. In war, as in war.

Stalin. Do you have concrete proposals for the creation of such an organ?

Dzhuga hands Stalin a typewritten text.

Stalin (to Lavrov). Have you read these proposals?

Lavrov answers in the affirmative.

Stalin. Very well. Leave them with me, I shall look them over.

(From: Zhukhrai V. Stalin: Truth and Lies, pp. 265-271.)