Record of a Conversation with the Ambassador of Argentina, Leopoldo Bravo

Source: Tom 18

February 7, 1953

Stalin asks how long it has been since the Ambassador was last in the USSR and whether Moscow has changed in the meantime.

Bravo replies that he was away from the USSR for four years and that very significant changes are visible in Moscow. Construction on a grand scale is underway.

Bravo goes on to say that President Peron of Argentina has instructed him to convey warm greetings to Generalissimus Stalin and to say that Argentina wishes to strengthen its ties with the Soviet Union and, in particular, to develop trade relations.

Stalin says that on our side there will be no objections to this.

Bravo states that it is an enormous honor and an enormous pleasure for him to visit the Generalissimus, and that this visit will remain in his memory for the rest of his life.

Stalin remarks that receiving ambassadors is his duty, his obligation. He asks Bravo what might serve as objects of trade between Argentina and the USSR -- what Argentina would like to purchase in the Soviet Union and what it could sell to the Soviet Union.

Bravo replies that the Argentine Ministry of Foreign Affairs transmitted to the Soviet Ambassador Rezanov a memorandum containing a list of goods that Argentina would like to purchase in the Soviet Union, as well as a list of goods that Argentina could supply to the Soviet Union. First and foremost, Argentina would like to purchase drilling equipment for the oil industry, petroleum, and agricultural machinery from the USSR. For its part, Argentina could offer hides, wool, vegetable oil, and other goods.

Stalin says that the Soviet Government will review this proposal and that the USSR is interested in trade with Argentina.

Bravo reports that from an early age he has taken an interest in the Soviet Union and has read books about the USSR, and that he is thus personally interested in good relations with the USSR as well. Bravo expresses his admiration for the enormous construction underway in the Soviet Union and for the remarkable successes the USSR has achieved in the field of industrialization.

Stalin says that it is impossible to force a people to build by means of coercion, but the Soviet people themselves want to build, and this makes the work of construction easier.

Bravo notes that President Peron of Argentina has also launched a movement for the independence of the country.

Stalin asks: is Argentina not an independent country at present?

Bravo replies that Argentina is an independent country, but that previously there were many foreign imperialist monopolies in the country that dominated important sectors of the Argentine economy. President Peron launched a campaign for the nationalization of foreign enterprises and has already nationalized some of them -- in particular, the railways, the ports, the electrical industry, urban transportation, and the meat-packing plants. He states that without economic independence there is no freedom.

Stalin agrees with this. He says that the Americans know very well that whoever controls a country's economy controls its independence, and that it will be good for Argentina if its economic independence is established, even if only gradually. This will be good for Argentina.

Bravo says that this is precisely what Peron and his supporters are now doing: pursuing economic independence in order to achieve political independence. He states that Argentina would like to strengthen cultural ties with the USSR, as well as ties in the sphere of sports.

Stalin welcomes this proposal. He remarks that the Spaniards used to be good sportsmen. He asks whether sports are well developed in Argentina.

Bravo replies that football is very popular in Argentina. Argentina would be interested in having an Argentine football team visit the USSR and a Soviet team visit Argentina.

Stalin says that this question can be discussed. He asks about the official language of Argentina -- is it Spanish?

Bravo confirms that the official language of Argentina is Spanish.

Stalin says that, as far as he recalls, several years ago the Argentine Minister of Foreign Affairs was Bramuglia, and he remarks in this connection that there are two villages in the Caucasus called Bramuglia.

Bravo confirms that Bramuglia was indeed the Argentine Minister of Foreign Affairs. He says that at present Bramuglia is a university professor.

Stalin says that during the war in Spain, the Spanish Ambassador in Moscow was Pascua. Noting that this surname is also common in the Caucasus, he speaks of a certain linguistic kinship between the peoples inhabiting the Caucasus and Spain.

Bravo agrees and says that this summer he intends to visit the Caucasus, as it seems to him that the customs of the Caucasian peoples are close to those of the people of his country.

Stalin remarks that in ancient times many peoples sought refuge in the Caucasus Mountains from the pursuit of enemies. Over time, the remnants of these peoples accumulated like geological strata. To this day, remnants of the Basques, Sarmatians, Avars, and of peoples that have since vanished are preserved in the Caucasus. Therefore, from the standpoint of ethnography, the Caucasus is of great interest. A scholar who undertook to study the ethnographic composition of the Caucasus would find a great deal of fascinating material. In Dagestan, for example, in three or four gorges situated close to one another, there live peoples who speak different languages and do not understand each other.

He asks the Ambassador about the state of Mexico's economic independence.

Bravo replies that, in his opinion, Mexico cannot develop freely because of its strong dependence on the United States.

Stalin says that this is correct.

Bravo says that in all the countries of Latin America a movement for economic independence is currently developing. The people of Argentina regard the Soviet Union with very great sympathy, seeing in it the vanguard of the struggle for the independence of nations. A delegation of 40 persons from Argentina attended the Congress of the Peoples in Defense of Peace -- representatives of various political parties, religious persuasions, and professions; there were also workers. Of this delegation, 15 persons visited the Soviet Union. These delegates called on the Ambassador and told him of the enormous impression made upon them by their stay in the Soviet Union and their visits to the enterprises of Moscow, in particular to the Stalin Works, where they witnessed the assembly of automobiles.

Stalin says that the strength of the Anglo-Americans lies in the fact that, while Spain, for example, concerned itself primarily with Catholicism, they strove to develop their industry. He notes that in order to become self-reliant, one must have one's own industry.

Bravo fully agrees with this. He says this is precisely why they are fighting in Argentina for economic independence, and that they have had some success in this matter.

Stalin says that without this condition it is impossible to achieve independence.

Bravo reports that this year Argentine factories have for the first time supplied the country's agriculture with domestically produced tractors and trucks.

Stalin asks whether Argentina has oil.

Bravo replies that oil is available but that there is a shortage of equipment for drilling oil wells.

Stalin asks whether there are specialists for the oil-extraction industry.

Bravo replies that such specialists are available. He also notes that the oil industry in Argentina has been nationalized and belongs to the state.

Stalin says that this is good -- very good.

Bravo, after noting that his next statement will be unofficial, reports that several years ago England was eating Argentine meat for free, since the meat-packing plants, the railways, and the fleet belonged to England, and that Argentina even had to pay a supplement on the meat it exported to England.

Stalin asks: will this continue in the future?

Bravo replies that it will not, since at present the railways, the meat-packing plants, and the ports belong to the state. However, he notes that Argentina is experiencing a shortage of railway cars and railway equipment.

Stalin says that we will have both railway cars and machinery for Argentina.

Bravo thanks him.

Stalin asks him to convey to President Peron of Argentina his gratitude for the greetings and his wish for success in Argentina's struggle for independence.

Bravo thanks him warmly. He says he will not delay in communicating this to Peron.

Stalin says that in the old days, under tsarism, all of the industry of Leningrad, for example, and the entire Baltic Fleet depended on English coal, but that this is no longer the case because we drove the English out. That is why they curse us.

Bravo agrees with this.

Stalin says that the Anglo-Saxons like to sit on other people's backs. This must be put to an end.

Bravo says that, fortunately, a movement for national independence is developing in all countries and that soon England will have to sit only in its own house.

Stalin: Let it sit in its own house -- we have no intention of invading it.

Bravo considers that at present, in connection with the growth of the national liberation movement throughout the world, England no longer dares to invade other countries.

Stalin: No, there are regions where England does invade: Malaya, Africa, and other places. He notes that British interests are also strong in Belgium and the Netherlands. He observes that there still exist places in the world that England could plunder, but that these are becoming fewer with each passing day.

Bravo expresses the hope that soon no such places will remain at all.

Stalin says that every nation, even the smallest, wants to live its own life.

Bravo fully agrees with this. He says that such a desire exists in every nation.

Stalin says that the Latin American countries ought to unite. He remarks that perhaps the Latin American countries should form something along the lines of a United States of South America.

Bravo says that, fortunately, in the Latin American countries the movement against foreign imperialism is becoming more unified, and that Argentina is setting an example in the cause of winning economic independence.

Stalin says that some kind of union of Latin American countries should be created for positive purposes, for the purposes of economic construction, and not merely for the organization of resistance. He asks whether the Latin American countries would want to form such a union.

Bravo says that the Latin American countries apparently do have such a desire, but that as soon as any country begins to fight for economic independence, the United States launches a hostile press campaign against that country, seeking to accuse it of an attachment to communism and of dependence on the Soviet Union.

Stalin says that this only betrays the poverty of mind of the leaders of the United States, who have plenty of money but little in their heads. He remarks in this connection that American presidents, as a rule, do not like to think and prefer to make use of "brain trusts"; that Roosevelt and Truman, in particular, had such trusts, evidently believing that if they had money, brains were unnecessary.

He asks whether the Ambassador has any other questions for discussion.

Bravo says that he has no other questions. He would like to state that he feels an immense sense of pride and gratitude for having been permitted to pay his respects to Generalissimus Stalin, and that the memory of this visit he will cherish forever.

Stalin replies that, should the need arise, he is prepared to receive the Ambassador again, as this is his duty.

Bravo says that he is very glad to see Generalissimus Stalin in good health, cheerful and vigorous.

Stalin asks: what could be the cause of such gladness -- what benefit has he brought to Argentina?

Bravo says that Stalin is a person whom people the world over think about -- and not only communists -- a person in whom everyone takes an interest, about whom everyone inquires, whose books are read and whose pronouncements serve as a guide.

Stalin remarks that the Ambassador is evidently exaggerating.

Bravo says that all his words come from the heart.

Stalin says that he does not doubt this, but that people in other countries exaggerate his role. One person praises him, another picks it up, and soon everyone is praising.

Bravo says that be that as it may, he knows with certainty that no one in the world is spoken of as much as Stalin.

Stalin remarks in a humorous tone that some praise him and others curse him -- Churchill, for example.

Bravo once again thanks him for the honor shown to him and says that he is filled with joy at the opportunity that has been afforded him to see and speak with the Generalissimus.

At this point the conversation, which had lasted 40 minutes, came to an end. The Minister of Foreign Affairs of the USSR, A.Ya. Vyshinsky, was present during the conversation.

The conversation was recorded by Comrade Vyshinsky and Comrade Kolosovsky.

Source: Nezavisimaya Gazeta, March 4, 2003.

RGASPI, Fond 558, Inventory 11, File 250, Sheets 3-11.