Record of a Conversation with Jiang Jingguo,
Personal Representative of Chiang Kai-shek
January 3, 1946
23:00

Present: Molotov, Pavlov (NKID), Fu Bingchang, Ambassador of China.

Jiang Jingguo congratulates Comrade Stalin and Comrade Molotov on the New Year and expresses wishes for new victories in the new year.

Comrade Stalin thanks him.

Comrade Molotov thanks him and congratulates Jiang Jingguo on the New Year.

Comrade Stalin says that he has spoken by telephone with Soviet military men. They do not agree to refraining from declaring the Japanese enterprises that served the Kwantung Army to be trophy property. The Soviet military men are offended that this property is not wished to be considered trophies of the Red Army.

They want this property to be treated in the same way as German property in Poland, Czechoslovakia, and other European countries liberated by the Red Army. The Chinese side will lose nothing by this.

The trophy enterprises will be jointly exploited on an equal basis by the Chinese and Soviet sides, and for their exploitation several companies may be created for various branches of industry.

Jiang Jingguo says that the Chinese government is proposing the same thing, but only in a different form.

Comrade Stalin remarks that the form proposed by the Chinese side offends the Soviet military men, who say that they shed blood and therefore the Japanese enterprises that served the Kwantung Army must be recognized as trophies of the Red Army.

Comrade Stalin says that it is necessary on the spot to determine concretely which enterprises the Japanese built and exploited for the service of the Kwantung Army.

Jiang Jingguo asks what Comrade Stalin thinks about allocating some enterprises of heavy industry to China. Marshal Malinovsky said that specialists should concern themselves with this question.

Comrade Stalin replies that specialists on the spot can, of course, study this question.

Jiang Jingguo declares that the task of his trip to Moscow consists in achieving full mutual understanding between Generalissimo Stalin and Chiang Kai-shek, who would like Generalissimo Stalin to frankly and in a friendly manner set forth his opinion about the measures and the policy that the National Government of China has been conducting recently.

Chiang Kai-shek would like Generalissimo Stalin to express his doubts and communicate that with which he disagrees. The statements of Generalissimo Stalin will be very useful for determining the policy of the government led by Chiang Kai-shek.

Comrade Stalin replies that he is not familiar with the basic facts of the situation in China. He, Comrade Stalin, does not know everything that is happening in China. The Soviet government does not understand why the disarming of the Japanese is being delayed, why agreement between Chiang Kai-shek and Mao Zedong is proving impossible.

Mao Zedong is an unusual man and an unusual communist. He goes around villages, avoids cities and is not interested in them. He, Comrade Stalin, does not have facts. And therefore he only has questions. What advice can he give if he, Comrade Stalin, has few facts.

Touching on the policy of the Soviet government toward Japan, Comrade Stalin says that, as he has already said, it is necessary to strive so that Japan cannot wage war. The Japanese military cadres must be taken prisoner and the military industry and that industry which can work for the satisfaction of military needs must be disarmed.

As for the policy of the Soviet government toward China, this is a policy of friendship and support for the National Government of China. This was openly stated in the published communiques.

He, Comrade Stalin, considers correct the policy of China's friendship with America that Chiang Kai-shek intends to pursue. The Soviet Union cannot render great economic assistance to China. Chiang Kai-shek is awaiting assistance from the USA, and therefore his policy of friendship with the USA is correct.

He, Comrade Stalin, frankly says what he knows and asks about what he does not know — that is, about the disarming of the Japanese army and the agreement between Chiang Kai-shek and Mao Zedong. He, Comrade Stalin, does not know why the disarming of the Japanese is being delayed. The Soviet command quickly disarmed the Japanese, and if there is the will, they can be quickly disarmed.

Jiang Jingguo replies that in the first period the Chinese government did not have sufficient forces for disarming the Japanese.

Comrade Stalin remarks that almost no forces at all are needed to disarm the Japanese.

Jiang Jingguo declares that now the Chinese government has forces and the matter of the Japanese will be finished. The Soviet-Chinese treaty is directed against Japan, and Generalissimo Stalin can rest assured that in its policy toward Japan, China will proceed from the aim of preventing Japan from rising to its feet again.

As for the disarming of Japanese troops in China, the resolution of this task is complicated by geographical circumstances and by the fact that Chinese troops were at one time pushed back by the Japanese into the southern regions.

Comrade Stalin asks why the Americans are not disarming the Japanese. The Japanese are not resisting. After all, the capitulation of Japanese troops has already been announced.

Jiang Jingguo says that, in his opinion, the failure to conclude an agreement between the Chinese Communists and the government was due to the fact that the leaders of both sides do not trust each other. Comrade Stalin remarks that some concessions are needed, but exactly what kind — the parties themselves must decide.

Jiang Jingguo says that he heard on the radio about the proposals that the National Government made to the Chinese Communists.

Molotov sets forth the press reports about the proposals of the National Government and the proposals of the Chinese Communists. Molotov notes that not everything is clear in these proposals, but according to the proposals of the Chinese government it turns out that the Chinese government will not give its consent to a ceasefire against the Communists until a procedure has been worked out by which an agreement between the Chinese Communists and the National Government is to be concluded.

Jiang Jingguo says that the Chinese people are extremely interested in the conclusion of an agreement, since civil war is a terrible thing.

Comrade Stalin remarks that in the Soviet Union they know what civil war is.

Molotov says that American General Wedemeyer made a statement about the intention of the American command to increase American troops by 4,000 men for the purpose of ensuring the advance of Chinese troops in Manchuria and maintaining order on the roads.

Jiang Jingguo says that this statement was made by Wedemeyer even before Truman's statement about American policy toward China, that is, even before General Marshall's arrival in China.

Jiang Jingguo says that the main difficulty now lies in the fact that there is no rail communication between Beiping and Nanjing, since the railway has been cut by Communist detachments. Even on the stretch between Beijing and Tianjin, 100 km long, trains run every day or two. An agreement must be reached as quickly as possible, so as to establish, in particular, rail communication.

Comrade Stalin says that an agreement between the Communists and the central government will improve the situation of the Chinese people and will facilitate the development of trade.

Jiang Jingguo agrees with this and says that the Chinese have been at war for many years and have suffered greatly from the war.

Comrade Molotov remarks that the Chinese people are tired of war.

Jiang Jingguo says that the poor in China are suffering particularly. He, Jiang Jingguo, considers that in the present war the Soviet Union and China suffered more than all other countries.

Jiang Jingguo asks whether Comrade Stalin will express his doubts about the policy of Chiang Kai-shek.

Comrade Stalin replies that he is not familiar with the facts and that it is difficult for him to say anything. He, Comrade Stalin, has no doubts. He had some questions, which he communicated to Jiang Jingguo.

Jiang Jingguo says that in China everyone stands on the position of the necessity of democratizing China.

Comrade Stalin asks whether China is at present a republic and whether there are no monarchist tendencies in China.

Jiang Jingguo replies that China is a republic and that at present there are no monarchist tendencies in China.

Comrade Stalin says that a republic stands closer to democracy.

In the Soviet Union there are no hostile classes, and therefore in the Soviet Union it is possible to have a single-party system. In China, besides the Guomindang and the Communist Party, other parties should exist. Are there such parties in China?

Jiang Jingguo replies that there are very few of them. Comrade Stalin says that elective principles must be introduced in China. The government must be accountable before parliament and the president. He, Comrade Stalin, does not know what parliamentary system is envisaged for application in China: unicameral or bicameral.

Comrade Stalin asks whether provincial governments remain in China.

Jiang Jingguo replies affirmatively.

Comrade Stalin says that he does not know what tendencies exist in China — for one chamber or for two chambers. But it is necessary that elective principles be introduced in China, as in France, Poland, Yugoslavia, England, and America.

Parliament must be elected, and the government must be appointed by parliament and confirmed by the president. In the USA the president is simultaneously the prime minister. In France it is otherwise. There the lower and upper chambers elect the president, and he is not the prime minister, although he can participate in sessions of the government, acting as chairman. But the French and American systems meet the principles of democracy.

Jiang Jingguo asks whether Comrade Stalin considers acceptable for China the forms existing in Yugoslavia and Poland.

Comrade Stalin says that in Yugoslavia and in Poland, as in France, a bicameral system operates. In the Soviet Union too there are two chambers, enjoying equal rights. For example, the Soviet of the Union can reject a decision adopted by the Soviet of Nationalities, and vice versa.

In England it is otherwise. There too there are lower and upper chambers, but the House of Lords has more rights than the House of Commons. In America there is a Senate and a House of Representatives, and the Senate has more rights. He, Comrade Stalin, does not know what system exists in China.

Comrade Stalin asks what yuan represents (a Chinese word meaning chamber, council. — Ed.).

Jiang Jingguo replies that it is something like a chamber.

Comrade Stalin says that the name of chambers can be anything, depending on national characteristics, but they must be elected organs.

Jiang Jingguo asks how in the USSR a decision is made in cases where disagreements arise between the chambers.

Comrade Molotov replies that in such cases a joint session of both chambers is convened and the decision is adopted by a majority vote.

Jiang Jingguo asks what ratio between Communists and Guomindang, in Stalin's opinion, should exist in the future Chinese government.

Comrade Stalin replies that in Europe the number of portfolios that a party holds in the government usually corresponds to the number of its deputies in parliament. In America and England, governments are formed from members of the party that has received the majority.

For example, in the last elections in England the Labourites received a majority and they formed a government composed only of Labourites. Nevertheless, the British and Americans demand that in other countries, for example in Romania, Bulgaria, and Poland, opposition parties be represented in the government.

When he, Comrade Stalin, asks the British and Americans why they do not admit opposition representatives into their own governments, they shrug their shoulders.

In France it is otherwise. The system of government formation that exists there is closer to democratism, since the representatives of parties that received a minority also participate in the government. If representatives of the opposition are not admitted into the government, the opposition moves to illegal struggle. But if they are admitted, the opposition becomes loyal. This is the advantage of admitting opposition representatives into the government.

Comrade Stalin cites the example of Hungary, where the Smallholders Party received more than half the votes and yet it admitted into the government representatives of Social Democrats, Communists, and Liberals, retaining the majority of portfolios for itself.

Jiang Jingguo replies that, as he thinks, China should not apply in its own case those forms of democracy that exist in England. He, Jiang Jingguo, thinks that at the present stage the representatives of all democratic parties should participate in the Chinese government.

Jiang Jingguo asks how Comrade Stalin now evaluates the balance of forces between the Guomindang and the Communist Party.

Comrade Stalin says that it is very difficult to answer this question. At the time of the Potsdam Conference, Churchill and Eden considered that the Conservatives would receive a majority. Attlee said that he was not hoping for a majority. He, Comrade Stalin, himself considered that the Conservatives would receive a majority in the elections, but the Labourites won. In China there have been no elections, and therefore it is difficult to take into account what the people think. In all probability, the Guomindang should receive a majority, but exactly how large, he, Comrade Stalin, finds it difficult to say.

Jiang Jingguo asks whether Comrade Stalin considers the coexistence of the Guomindang and the Communist Party possible and on what conditions.

Comrade Stalin replies that if there are free elections, the Communists will exist, and the Guomindang will exist. For example, the Soviet Union gets along with American and British capitalists and does not fight with them. All the more so should the Guomindang and the Chinese Communist Party get along. Of course, there will be competition between the parties, but the Guomindang and the Communist Party will exist.

Jiang Jingguo asks what Comrade Stalin's opinion is of the Guomindang. Many are dissatisfied with the Guomindang.

Comrade Stalin says that the Soviet government is also dissatisfied with the Guomindang. To this day in Manchuria leaflets signed by the Guomindang are being distributed. These leaflets contain calls to kill Russians. Of course, this causes dissatisfaction on the part of the Soviet government.

Jiang Jingguo says that in Manchuria this may be Japanese provocation.

Comrade Stalin replies that when Chinese people who were distributing these leaflets are arrested, they declare that they are members of detachments belonging to the Guomindang. The Guomindang has two faces: one legal and another illegal.

Guomindang members acting illegally in Manchuria are calling on the population in leaflets distributed in Changchun, Mukden, and Dalny to drive Soviet troops out of Manchuria. Such actions of the Guomindang cause dissatisfaction with the Soviet government.

The Soviet government will not allow in its own country actions against Chiang Kai-shek, since it signed a treaty with him and the political line must be one. Perhaps different groups exist within the Guomindang.

Jiang Jingguo replies that indeed various groups exist in the Guomindang. In the Guomindang there are representatives both of capitalists and of landlords. However, with regard to the organization of the Guomindang in Manchuria, he, Jiang Jingguo, remembers well that Chiang Kai-shek gave the directive to the Guomindang organization in Manchuria to disband Guomindang organizations engaged in anti-Soviet agitation, and even to arrest members of such organizations.

Jiang Jingguo says that it is necessary to take into account that the situation in Manchuria is very complicated.

Comrade Stalin says that he knows this and that perhaps in Manchuria self-proclaimed individuals are operating who call themselves Guomindang members. However, the Guomindang has not officially dissociated itself from the actions of those organizations that are distributing leaflets directed against the Soviet Union.

Jiang Jingguo replies that in Manchuria many Guomindang organizations have been disbanded, and again repeats that the situation in Manchuria is very complicated.

Jiang Jingguo asks what else Comrade Stalin can say about the Guomindang.

Comrade Stalin replies that in China a system of tolerance must be established, under which, alongside the Guomindang, other parties will be able to exist.

Jiang Jingguo replies that in China the conditions are very distinctive. Not having sufficient forces, Chiang Kai-shek acted in a zigzag manner in his policy.

Comrade Stalin says that such a policy is very difficult to pursue for a long time.

Jiang Jingguo replies that Chiang Kai-shek does not yet have sufficient forces.

Comrade Stalin asks whether the Communists are really stronger than Chiang Kai-shek. Mao Zedong shouts that he has one and a half million troops, while the Americans consider that he has 600,000. Jiang Jingguo says that, of course, these figures are exaggerated.

Jiang Jingguo says that many considered that Chiang Kai-shek was for Japan. In fact, however, he was preparing for war with Japan. He, Jiang Jingguo, wants Generalissimo Stalin to understand that Chiang Kai-shek is striving for what is new.

Comrade Stalin says that he knows that it is hard for Chiang Kai-shek and asks whether young cadres have come forward during the war.

Jiang Jingguo replies that the new Minister of War in China is from the young cadres.

Jiang Jingguo remarks that, as he assumes, Comrade Stalin must be interested in the Guomindang, since the Guomindang was once created with the assistance of Lenin.

Comrade Stalin replies that the Guomindang will exist as a national liberal party. Those who think that the Communists will devour the Guomindang are mistaken. The Guomindang is, of course, a broader and more influential party than the Communist Party.

Jiang Jingguo says that he considers it useful for the Guomindang if the Communist Party exists, since the existence of the Communist Party will protect the Guomindang from decay.

Jiang Jingguo says that the Guomindang needs to be restructured. Comrade Stalin says that the Guomindang will be improved by elections, since in the course of elections a selection of people takes place: the better ones remain and the worse ones depart.

Jiang Jingguo says that many new figures came forward during the war.

Comrade Stalin says that if this is so, then this is good, since in China the old figures still flash by.

Jiang Jingguo says that, finally, he would like to discuss with Generalissimo Stalin the question of the economy of China, which has suffered greatly in eight years of war. China would like to emerge from the position of a semi-colonial country.

Comrade Stalin replies that in order to achieve this, one must have one's own industry. One should not be carried away only by trade. If the Soviet Union had had no industry, the Germans would have defeated the Soviet Union.

Thanks to the existence of industry in the Soviet Union, during the war it was possible to produce monthly 3,000 aircraft, 3,000 tanks, 5,000 cannons, 400,000 rifles, and 200,000 submachine guns. China needs its own industry. For this, both raw materials and an industrious people exist in China.

Jiang Jingguo says that a discussion is now taking place in China about whether more attention should be devoted to agriculture or to industry. He, Jiang Jingguo, thinks that the main reason for the successes of the Soviet Union in the war with Germany is the absence of private property.

Comrade Stalin says that although private property exists in America, industry there is very powerful.

Comrade Stalin says that in order to develop agriculture, it is necessary to create industry, to build railways, to build factories for the production of fertilizers, to build automobile factories, and so forth. In China no oil is extracted. However, oil exists in Xinjiang and should be found in the south. It is necessary to organize the prospecting and extraction of oil.

Jiang Jingguo asks whether Comrade Stalin considers it possible for China to develop its industry with the help of foreign capital.

Comrade Stalin replies that with the help of foreign capital China can create industry more quickly. In the Soviet Union the task of creating industry was facilitated by the fact that everything is in the hands of the state. In China industrialization is harder to carry out, and therefore China needs to obtain loans from foreign powers, otherwise industrialization will drag on for many years.

Jiang Jingguo says that the Chinese are afraid of finding themselves again in the position of a semi-colonial power.

Comrade Stalin says that it is necessary to fight. China represents a large market and foreign powers will strive to import their goods there. The import of goods should be permitted, while not allowing foreign powers to impose any conditions on China.

For example, the Americans recently proposed a loan of 200 million dollars to Poland, but set the condition that this money be spent as the Americans want. Of course, foreign powers will demand that China not develop its own heavy industry. In order not to fall into bondage, it is necessary to fight, and China has the means to wage this struggle.

Jiang Jingguo asks how Comrade Stalin views the open-door policy.

Comrade Stalin notes that foreign powers wanted the Soviet Union to open its doors, but the Soviet government sent them to the devil. However, China, as a weak country, will have to formally agree to the open-door policy. Usually open doors are demanded of semi-colonial countries.

Comrade Stalin says that the Americans approached the Soviet government regarding the application of the open-door policy to Manchuria. The Soviet government replied to the Americans that it is not the master in Manchuria and that on this matter they should address China. The Americans were very surprised by this reply, but reconciled themselves to it.

Jiang Jingguo asks whether the question of the open-door policy was discussed at the Yalta Conference.

Comrade Stalin replies affirmatively and adds that the Soviet representatives at the Yalta Conference declared that this was China's affair.

Jiang Jingguo says that Truman informed the Chinese government that the Soviet government does not object to the open-door policy in China.

Comrade Stalin says that the Soviet government does not object to the open-door policy if China agrees to it, but the Soviet Union itself does not demand any open doors. What can one advise China on this question? At the present stage it is difficult for China to reject the open-door policy, since China has suffered greatly during the war and is ruined. But later China will have to close its doors in order to create its own industry.

Jiang Jingguo says that indeed China is now in a very difficult economic situation. He, Jiang Jingguo, thinks that no one except the USSR wants the revival of China.

Comrade Stalin says that he understands this. The Japanese ruined China. The Soviet government knows what kind of plunderers the Germans are.

Jiang Jingguo asks how the Soviet Union and China can help each other.

Comrade Stalin replies that the Soviet Union will help China in creating its own industry and will trade with it. By buying from it soybeans, rice, if there is much of it in China, cotton, some raw materials, a little tungsten, and so on. In exchange the Soviet Union could provide China with some machine tools, machines, and render assistance with specialists.

Manchuria is a rather developed industrial country with a developed railway network. The Japanese wanted to turn Manchuria into their industrial base on the continent.

Jiang Jingguo says that in Manchuria there are no qualified cadres among the Chinese population.

Comrade Stalin replies that the Chinese are a capable people and they will learn.

Jiang Jingguo says that much Chinese youth was sent to study in America.

Comrade Stalin says that this is not bad and declares that China needs its own engineers, technicians, mechanics, financiers, economists, and agricultural specialists.

Jiang Jingguo says that a large number of qualified Chinese personnel will be required for work on the Changchun Railway. In connection with this, he, Jiang Jingguo, would like to ask Generalissimo Stalin how he views the sending of Chinese youth to educational institutions of the Soviet Union, especially transport institutes.

Comrade Stalin says that although there are difficulties, this can be done.

Jiang Jingguo asks whether Comrade Stalin considers it expedient for a Chinese economic delegation to come to the USSR.

Comrade Stalin replies that a Chinese economic delegation can come to the Soviet Union and inspect factories and plants.

Jiang Jingguo says that he would like to draw Generalissimo Stalin's attention to the situation in Xinjiang. At one time there were many Soviet specialists there. He, Jiang Jingguo, thinks that the former situation should be restored.

Comrade Stalin replies that Sheng Shicai began arresting Soviet specialists and the Soviet government recalled them from Xinjiang. If Soviet specialists are treated well, then they can be sent there. He, Comrade Stalin, will clarify this in the coming days.

Jiang Jingguo says that Sheng Shicai is no longer in Xinjiang.

Jiang Jingguo asks whether the economy of China can develop on the same foundations as the economy of the Mongolian People's Republic. After all, in the Mongolian People's Republic there are remnants of feudalism, capitalist relations exist, and alongside this collective farms.

Comrade Stalin says that in the Mongolian People's Republic collective farms do not exist.

Jiang Jingguo says that, as he was told, the Mongolian People's Republic has a developed industry and the people live well there.

Comrade Stalin says that in the Mongolian People's Republic there is a leather combine, a railway has been built, some steps have been taken in the extraction of minerals. There is no other industry in the Mongolian People's Republic.

Of course, the Mongols are no longer such wild people as before. However, China cannot be compared with Mongolia, a backward country. China can become a first-class power. As for the forms of the economy, China, unlike Mongolia, is not a pastoral country.

In China agriculture is very developed in terms of intensity. Every patch of land is valued there. In China everything exists for creating its own industry. In Mongolia land is not valued. The Mongols engage in animal husbandry, and they are backward herdsmen.

There, cattle are not provided with fodder for winter. Mongolia is a nomadic country and therefore backward. Therefore China and Mongolia cannot be placed on the same level either in the social or in the economic sense. The base in the Mongolian People's Republic is animal husbandry, while in China it is agriculture.

Jiang Jingguo asks what wishes Comrade Stalin has regarding the policy of the Chinese government in Manchuria.

Comrade Stalin says that the Chinese government must have its own and not someone else's policy in Manchuria, that it should not orient itself toward anyone and should not be dictated to by other states. Chiang Kai-shek knows this. Comrade Stalin asks whether the British intend to return Hong Kong to the Chinese.

Jiang Jingguo replies in the negative.

Comrade Stalin says that Roosevelt was a passionate advocate of returning Hong Kong to China and in his time hotly argued with Churchill on this matter.

Jiang Jingguo replies that for the time being the British do not intend to transfer Hong Kong to the Chinese. Jiang Jingguo says that the day after tomorrow he will fly back to China, and asks whether Comrade Stalin wishes to transmit anything through him to Chiang Kai-shek.

Comrade Stalin replies that he will send a letter to Chiang Kai-shek.

The conversation lasted 1 hour 30 minutes.

Recorded by V. Pavlov.

Ledovsky A.M. SSSR i Stalin v sud'bakh Kitaya. Dokumenty i svidetel'stva uchastnikov sobytiy 1937-1952 gg. Pp. 29-39.